Types of cartridges 5 45. Military history, weapons, old and military maps
A low-pulse intermediate cartridge, developed in the early 1970s by a group of Soviet designers as a counterweight to the American cartridge, which the Americans widely used in Vietnam in the 1960s.
Tactical and technical characteristics of 5.45x39 mm (7N10, with a bullet of increased penetration)
Caliber, mm - 5.45
Bullet diameter, mm - 5.60
Bullet length, mm - 25.5
Chuck length, mm - 56.7
Sleeve length, mm - 39.8
Bullet weight, g - 3.61
Cartridge weight, g - 10.2
Initial bullet speed, m/s - 870-890
Muzzle energy, J - 1360-1430
Loading chamber volume, cm - 31.56
Maximum gas pressure, MPa - 294
By the early 1970s, Soviet designers realized the promise of intermediate small-caliber cartridges: a small-caliber bullet, having a high initial velocity, provides a highly flat trajectory, has good armor penetration and significant destructive power, a small recoil impulse at the moment of firing has a beneficial effect on accuracy and accuracy of fire, and reducing the mass of the cartridge allows you to increase the ammunition carried by the shooter.
At the same time, work began on developing a new cartridge and weapons for its use. As a result, in 1974, the Soviet Army adopted a small arms complex consisting of a 5.45x39 cartridge, an AK-74 assault rifle (AKS-74) and an RPK-74 light machine gun. Later, the shortened AKS-74U assault rifle joined this family.
The 5.45-mm caliber automatic cartridge with a 7N6 steel core bullet and a 7T3 tracer bullet was developed under the leadership of V. M. Sabelnikov, a group of designers and technologists consisting of L. I. Bulavskaya, B. V. Semin, M. E. Fedorov , P. F. Sazonova, V. I. Volkova, V. A. Nikolaeva, E. E. Zimina, P. S. Koroleva, etc.
The 5.45 mm cartridge bullet is designed “on the verge of stability”, i.e. it flies steadily in the air and begins to “tumble” when it hits a denser environment - living tissue, wood, etc. This is achieved by shifting the center of gravity to the bottom of the bullet.
To ensure that the bullet loses stability in a dense environment, the bullet core is located in the bullet jacket with a gap in the front of the bullet. There is a void in front of the core and jacket in the front part, which ensures a shift in the center of gravity of the bullet and instability in a medium dense compared to air.
Bottle-shaped cartridge sleeve, bimetallic, without protruding flange, steel, varnished. The muzzle energy of the 5.45x39 cartridge is 1360-1430 J.
Types of cartridges 5.45x39:
- Blank (7X3) with a plastic bullet weighing 0.22-0.26 g. It has a charge of special fast-burning powder weighing 0.24 g.
- "T" - tracer (7T3). Bullet with increased armor penetration (with a hardened steel core). Green bullet top.
- “PS” - with a bullet with a steel core (index 7N6, 7N6VK) weighing 3.30-3.55 g. Since 1986, they have been produced with a heat-strengthened (up to 60 HRC) steel (65G) cylindrical core. The bullet is unpainted.
- A cartridge for firing weapons with silent firing devices (index 7U1) contains a bullet weighing 5.15 g, which has an initial speed of 303 m/s. The coloring is a black bullet top with a green rim.
- Educational (without charge). It is distinguished by the presence of four longitudinal stampings on the cartridge case and a double circular crimp of the bullet in the cartridge case.
1.
5.45х39 7Н6
2.
5.45х39 7Н24
3.
5.45х39 7Н10
4.
5.45х39 7Н22
In 1993, a PP cartridge (7N10) was released with a stamped core made of special grades of alloys such as steel 70 or 75 (a bullet with increased penetration), the bullet of which weighs 3.49-3.74 grams. penetrates a 16-mm steel plate at a distance of 100 meters, elements of body armor made of titanium alloys at a distance of 200 meters. The sealant varnish is dark purple in color, in contrast to the red in 7N6.
A stamped, pointed core is used that has a short ogive, and the nose of the core has a flat area with a diameter of about 0.8 mm. In 1994, a cartridge with a modernized 7N10 bullet of increased power was developed and put into production, the main difference of which is that the cavity in the nose is filled with lead, which prevented the shell from being pulled into the hole punched in the barrier by the core.
Upon contact with an obstacle by the pressure of lead compressed between the head of the core and the bullet shell, the latter is destroyed. This device prevents parts of the shell from being pulled into the hole, which increases the bullet’s penetration ability.
In 1998, the BP cartridge (7N22) with an armor-piercing bullet weighing 3.68 g was developed and adopted for service, which penetrates an armor plate 5 mm thick at a distance of 250 meters. The 7N22 bullet uses a pointed core made of high-carbon steel U12A, using the cutting method followed by grinding the ogive part. The sealant varnish is red, the bullet has a black nose.
FSUE PA "Vympel" (Amursk) produces the 7N24 cartridge with an armor-piercing bullet weighing from 3.93 to 4.27 g and a speed of 840 m/s.
Model cartridge - intended for comparative testing of the ballistic characteristics of cartridges stored in warehouses. Corresponds to the standard cartridge (7N6), but is manufactured with increased accuracy. The bullet nose is painted white.
- Cartridge with enhanced charge (US) - the entire bullet is completely black.
- High pressure cartridge (HP) - the entire bullet is entirely yellow.
sporting and hunting cartridges 5.45x39
Cartridge 5.45x39 (5.45x40) SN-P for the SONAZ TP-82 complex. The bullet initially had a lead core and an exposed shell in the head, later - a steel core and a hole in the head. Bullet weight 3.6 g, initial speed - 825-840 m/s.
In addition to 5.45x39 combat cartridges, 5.45x39 sporting and hunting cartridges are also produced, but they are produced only for export.
The 5.45x39 low-pulse cartridge increased the effectiveness of individual small arms by 1.5 times. However, despite all the advantages of small-caliber cartridges, both the Russian 5.45x39 and the American 5.56x45 have one serious drawback: small-caliber bullets are prone to ricocheting.
Overall, the 5.45x39 cartridge turned out to be quite successful. Despite its lower power compared to the American cartridge, it is not inferior to it in efficiency.
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Any weapons enthusiast, and maybe even a military professional, will be interested in this topic because it provides the ballistic data of a bullet, including bullet speed, energy in joules, and the like. Using the data given in the tables, it is worth remembering that the indicated bullet speed at different distances may vary depending on the batch of cartridges, weather conditions and air temperature. We recommend that you read
BULLET SPEED AND BALLISTIC DATA OF THE 5.45X39 CARTRIDGE
The 5.45x39 caliber cartridge is used mainly by the military in 100 series assault rifles and AK-74 marking assault rifles. In some countries, this cartridge can be used for hunting purposes, but in Russia this cartridge is not used for hunting. Now a little about the data provided. Those data on bullet speed, its energy, flight time, descent and deflection from the wind are given in averages. So, for example, the muzzle velocity of a bullet will differ from other cartridges of the same caliber depending on the weapon model, batch of cartridges and characteristics of the bullet (armor-piercing, incendiary, etc.), but such changes will not vary much, so the speed data given is a bullet and its ballistic characteristics can be used as average indicators. We recommend that you read
TECHNICAL DATA TABLE: The first table uses meters for distance, meters per second to indicate bullet speed, bullet energy in joules, bullet time to travel a certain distance in seconds, and bullet absolute drop in centimeters. The second table indicates the distance in meters, the deviation in centimeters, provided the wind direction is 90 degrees, in relation to the target and the shooter. For the determination, the following data were taken from a 5.45x39 caliber cartridge, bullet weight 3.42 grams, muzzle velocity 870 meters per second and bullet ballistic coefficient 0.282.Sobol" 12-07-2017 10:05
Gentlemen, IMHO the moment has come when it became possible to talk about at least some choice of 5.45x39 caliber cartridges.
The market includes Tula, Barnaul and Amur.
The BPZ has 4 types of cartridges: 3.8g shell, 4.2g shell, semi-jacket and expansion with a bullet from 223.
I propose to collect statistics on these ammunition.
My two cents:
barrel - Saiga isp.030 with thick horseradish, according to the passport 78mm in diameter.
BPZ 4.2 grams gives a stable 11-12 cm at 100m over five shots.
BPZ 3.8 grams flies somehow differently every time, but overall worse than 4.2
BPZ expansion gives a passport pile of 7.5-8 cm per hundred square meters of five.
I haven’t tried Tula and Amur ones yet.
I would like to know the results of other comrades.
Sobol" 12-07-2017 10:10
heg 18-07-2017 12:40
finally a topic on 5.45 cartridges!!
1. Paton BPZ 3.85g
2. I’ll copy myself from the topic about C033
Saiga is correspondingly short, barrel 336 (or whatever) mm
yes, so sad, but Barnaul always made me happy
data from MagnetoSpeed Sporter, outside about -8? C
Tula FMJ 65(60?)gr average 740-770 m/s
BPZ SP 3.56 847 (showed 6 times out of 11 shots) -869m\s
FMJ 3.85 799-808
FMJ 4.2 750-770
Sobol" 21-08-2017 09:31
I recently shot BPZ expansion, BPZ casing 4.2g, and Tula (casing).
Saiga 030. Shooting range 100m, calm. Series 2x5.
According to the BPZ, there is nothing new: expansion 2-2.5 minutes, shell 3 minutes.
Tula was scattered so much that I didn’t even measure it. Both targets are approximately the same, 4 chaotic holes and one tear off the A4 sheet.
KILLERLOOP 21-08-2017 19:05
Amur ones are the best.
Tula middle peasants are strong.
BPZ is not stable.
VPO 148.
vellev 01-09-2017 23:12
Amur - average, strong (in terms of accuracy), without separation (the most stable).
Tula ones - I bought them, but haven’t tried them yet.
BPZ expansion - the most accurate, with rare gaps.
BPZ vol. 3.85 - worse than the Amur ones in accuracy, and with the sharpest recoil.
BPZ vol. 4.2- The heap is not stable, sometimes it flies like an expansion, but there are often breaks. The recoil is the softest.
BPZ semi-ob. - The most useless Mr. It flies as it wants, it doesn’t bunch up at all.
My choice is Amur
pruzhinkin 06-10-2017 21:37
Saiga 5.45.
Shot for the first time, with open sights, 50m shooting range.
BPZ - 26cm
Tulammo - 18cm
APZ - 9cm
Tula surprised with strong flashes when fired.
Sobol" 07-10-2017 08:44
quote: Originally posted by pruzhinkin:
Shot for the first time, with an open sight, 50m shooting range
Did you shoot with your hands?
MIRAZh-864 25-10-2017 11:33
Saiga 5.45 isp 030 fatty horseradish.
Standard sighting, barrel mileage 4000.
DTK, handguard, handle are not original, front sight 1.5 mm. Usm from Alexander Shutov with a short stroke (sports).
Shooting while resting on a backpack. Outdoor shooting range at 100m. The wind is gusty from 3 to 6 meters/sec. The direction is counter. Temperature 5 degrees plus.
Amur cartridges 3.85 gr.
4 piles of 5 shots after warming up the barrel with 30 rounds for 10 minutes.
Result: heaps for 3 minutes each at a passport size of 85 mm.
Sobol" 25-10-2017 13:04
MIRAZh-864 try the BPZ expansion if necessary, it should fly a little better.
B413BB 27-10-2017 22:12
Who knows what kind of gunpowder is in BPZ vol. 4.2?
B413BB 30-10-2017 21:20
quote: Originally posted by pruzhinkin:
picked it up today
What is the weight in grams?!
goga312 13-11-2017 21:50
I think this is what to feed Saiga MK 030, in the store there are BPZ 4.2 g varnish and 3.85 g zinc for the same price. The reviews are contradictory, some say that 4.2 grams of saigma went well, while others say 3.85 grams worked just fine. Maybe it depends on the parties? Share your experience of who shot what from the armored rifle, and which batches of cartridges gave good results.
Sobol" 14-11-2017 15:46
quote: Originally posted by goga312:
Share your experience of who shot what from the armored rifle, and which batches of cartridges gave good results.
I shot the entire Barnaul lineup. My barrel has the best HP flies, then the 4.2 shell, then the 3.85 shell, and the worst is the half shell.
sergioxii 18-11-2017 22:20
I use Saiga 033 (336 mm barrel). I mainly train with a 3.85g BPZ varnish shell or a 3.85g BPZ polymer shell, there is no difference at all - some are green, others are grey. I prefer the ones with polymer coating.
Tula gray ones, which in a black pack are identical in weight, size and appearance, like polymer ones from Barnaul, differ in price and inconvenient 20-piece packaging with a plastic holder. Sometimes they fly worse than Barnaul ones at a distance of more than 30 m, but it’s almost unnoticeable.
But the Barnaul half-shell with short bullets is the worst for me - not shown in the photo - I tried 3 packs; I don’t shove it anymore into the barrel.
I haven't tried Amursky. As always, what you haven’t tried seems desirable and special and, of course, the most correct and accurate. Alas, it is not for sale in the south of Russia.
sergioxii 20-11-2017 17:14
Varnish is the worst - when the chamber heats up too much, the varnish melts and clogs it. 6 packs of 30 quick fire - it may stick. A good example with idle - after 10 it sticks - but there they pour varnish from the heart into the tip.
quote: Originally posted by Sobol":
And who knows, given the same bullet, which is better - varnish, zinc, polymer?
Serj888 20-11-2017 20:47
This week I’ll try to get the 033 out of the box to shoot. I'll take different BPZ and report back
Serj888 24-11-2017 13:29
I went out with a friend. 033 out of the box. The result seems to mean nothing...
I took all three packs: FMJ 3.85, FMJ 4.2, HP and SP.
To begin with, we warmed up the barrel with a pack of SP-cleanly in the sand.
We set the target at 100m, started in series of 5 rounds with an open sight, a fab defense bipod with FMJ 3.85 - out of 20 shots, 2 bullets landed in A4 format. We moved it to 35m, hung up the A3 format - it began to fly down and to the right. We set a target at 50 m, shot FMJ 4.2 and HP from the open and from the optics.
As a result, we tinkered with all the odds and ends for 4-4.5 hours, adjusted the optics - at this stage the most accurate ones were HP, then FMJ 4.2. From an open sight it’s not particularly clear to me yet - I need to choose the time and go to lead to a normal battle ..
Serj888 19-12-2017 22:47
I was selecting a cartridge and settled on the bpz fmj 4.2. At the top left are the first 4 shots (4.5 cm), in the center after the first adjustment of the sight (6 cm). In principle, this cartridge produces such piles all the time, rarely by a small margin, but the pile is still within 3-3.5 moa. There are now about 800 shots on the saiga.
sergioxii 23-01-2018 18:42
I got my hands on the Amur fives in the Moscow region in Tempgan, bought 600 pieces, it’s a little inconvenient that the boxes are 20 pieces - the price is 12 rubles 70 k per piece
as a result, I didn’t notice any difference at all; I compared it with the Barnaul shell; I don’t see the point in overpaying 20% for a stripe with purple varnish
Sobol" 22-02-2018 12:00
So, Comrades, which is better?! I see there are different opinions!
We don’t have any Amur ones. I didn't like Tula.
Crew 22-02-2018 21:02
I bought BPZ FMJ 3.85, 4.2; SP. We'll try)
Sobol" 24-02-2018 14:22
quote: Originally posted by warrior_of_truth:
What is the difference between varnish/polymer?
In the color of the sleeve and the color of the pack. I didn't notice any other difference.
Sobol" 26-02-2018 12:01
On the 23rd we had fun shooting at 300m.
The weather is clear, dry, no wind, temperature about -12.
Cartridge - BPZ HP polymer.
x7 optics, soft stop.
Almost everyone flies into the 20x30cm gong after zeroing.
We didn’t shoot much at the target, but the impression was that it was quite possible to get eight or nine out of ten hits into the size of the eight target?4.
starii76 28-02-2018 22:21
So I also thought why I couldn’t hit the target at 300 meters by entering data from the BPZ website into the calculator!!! I should have tried TPZ, maybe everything is more honest with them.
Crew 07-04-2018 16:21
BPZ FMJ 4.2g flew well. Stable 25-30mm for 3 shots at 50m. There is nowhere to shoot at 100m((
By the way, the passport accuracy is 130mm))
Crew 26-05-2018 22:14
I wonder if the 5.56 saiga won’t fit into the 5.45 either?)) In terms of length. The shutter will not close completely.
scif8 01-06-2018 15:58
There is an interesting video about the five comparing cartridges
Savage94 07-08-2018 17:52
quote: Originally posted by starii76:
So I also thought why I couldn’t hit the target at 300 meters by entering data from the BPZ website into the calculator
The BPZ probably has a meter-long barrel.
Sobol" 13-08-2018 19:38
Yesterday I shot at 300.
BPZ HP cartridge, Saiga 030, optics nailed to 200m. The correction took about 30cm, and quite effectively hit the A4 format gong.
Savage94 08-10-2018 14:06
Has anyone tried the new Tula cartridges yet? We don’t have it in our city yet, I’m waiting for it to appear, and I’m looking for those who could bring it.
Sobol" 08-10-2018 15:03
what are the new Tula ones?
Savage94 08-10-2018 15:06
what are the new Tula ones?
It seems that before Tula 5.45 only supplied for export, but now the cartridges have gone to our civilian market. Moreover, the gunpowder stated in them is spherical. I'm very interested in trying them out.
Sobol" 08-10-2018 16:31
It seems that before Tula 5.45 only supplied for export
There were always Tula 5.45 cartridges in stores. Black packs of 20 pieces in plastic combs.
Savage94 08-10-2018 16:48
I'll know. I've never seen them myself. And how are they?
Sobol" 08-10-2018 17:11
I didn't like it. They fly worse than the BPZ, the carbon deposits are more difficult to clean... and the smell after the shot is somehow unusual))
Savage94 27-11-2018 07:03
quote: Originally posted by gladiatorfox2:
Has anyone tried Centaur?
Ooh, more cartridges, good and different
Sobol" 27-11-2018 11:59
I haven't seen a centaur for sale. I'd love to try it.
Savage94 27-11-2018 12:10
quote: Originally posted by Sobol":
I haven't seen a centaur for sale.
Well, here it is, it's new. We have to wait.
As soon as I see it, I will definitely take it apart. I hope to see normal spheroid powder in these cartridges, and not ersatz-VUFl.
Crew 08-12-2018 12:49
Huntactive said in 19 there will be a centaur.
Allrad 08-12-2018 09:56
I wouldn’t have waited, but I would have fired the APZ today.
Crew 08-12-2018 09:58
Where can I find them (many people don’t even know this manufacturer
goga312 08-12-2018 11:18
quote: Originally posted by Allrad:
I wouldn’t have waited, but I would have fired the APZ today.A few years ago I looked at the results of firing APZ from several ARs with the 8th twist. Quite at the level of average commercial 223 Rem cartridges...
The main problem with APZ is that they are a third more expensive than BPZ. With a bolt, maybe they will make sense, in saiga the accuracy is the same. But we must admit that on average the APZ is faster than the BPZ in the cold by about 30-50 meters per second, and at the same time it has less of a difference between winter and summer bullet speeds. I agree that APZ is the highest quality and most stable cartridge I have tested in this caliber.
Savage94 09-12-2018 19:33
APZ. 100 meters.
I have the same infection, and consistently!) No joke, I want to take a box for 1000 pieces.
Crew 20-12-2018 21:32
Savage94 20-12-2018 22:13
Were the APZs exported or something?) there is not a single Russian word on the package and it’s like an exclusive importer to the USA...
They walked, and they walked well. The only cartridges that people in the USA did not hesitate to buy; everything else came only as a kit.
Crew 21-12-2018 06:24
So Barnaul went well for them. Quite stable quality.
Sobol" 21-12-2018 11:16
Yesterday I took a couple of packs of APZ for 350 rubles. Barnaul in that warehouse was 280.
We'll try..
Allrad 21-12-2018 12:06
quote: Originally posted by Crew:
Were the APZs exported?
This plant drove millions there, especially in the period after the US ban on 7H6 core cartridges was introduced in 2014. And when there was no ban, about 100 million rounds of 5.45 cartridges from different manufacturers were imported into the United States annually, the main supplier being, of course, BPZ. But they were also supplied from other countries - Bulgaria, Kyrgyzstan, Poland, Romania, Ukraine and Uzbekistan. In China, as I know, the export of military cartridges with cores was not legally approved. And the opening of mass supplies began in the mid-90s, when Kalash from the Eastern bloc countries began to be imported en masse to the United States, and someone thought of certifying the Shortcuts and mini-Arks as pistols. This is what raised the market for a cartridge of this caliber to freaking proportions.
Now “they” have banned all Russian-made cartridges, so they are sold here as well. As for the packaging, it meets the requirements for primary labeling of PMC and is therefore 100% legal with us.
Crew 21-12-2018 14:56
Thanks for the info.
Savage94 21-12-2018 18:18
quote: Originally posted by Crew:
Are these Amur ones not 1 to 1 late PRS?
Both Amur and BPZ are PRS certified for the civilian market.
mihail.v.n34 21-12-2018 22:16
BPZ is PRS without varnish.
APZ is 7N24 without a core.
The difference is in the shape of the bullets.
The APZ has a stronger shell and higher speed.
Savage94 21-12-2018 23:04
quote: Originally posted by mihail.v.n34:
BPZ is PRS without varnish.
APZ is 7N24 without a core.
This seems to be true. Apparently, they make it out of something more convenient. The main indicators are bullet mass, maximum pressure, muzzle velocity. The form, apparently, is the tenth thing.
On the right is a PRS bullet produced by BPZ.
But the civilian bullet APZ
Sobol" 09-01-2019 16:24
Shot APZ.
All the series on my hundred are horizontal lines, about 8-9cm long. Five episodes, if that.
If we take only the dispersion diameter, then the APZs fly a little better than Barnaul.
But there is one interesting point. I shot the Saiga from Barnaul. The APZ shifted the STP by 25cm to the right. At the same time, Barnaul with any type of bullet flies to approximately the same place.
Another interesting point is that a pack of APZ consists of 20 rounds and costs 350 rubles, while Barnaul - 30 rounds costs 280 rubles. Those. the price per cartridge is almost twice as high.
I think that the 10% improvement in accuracy that the APZ gives does not cover either the cost of the cartridge or the need for zeroing. For this reason, Amur is in the furnace.
Sobol" 14-01-2019 17:37
Since the author decided to deprive his link of an annotation, I will write it:
A comparative shooting of two saigoas with different barrel lengths was carried out. The short one was on average 45 m/s slower. The average speed spread near Barnaul is about 10 m/s.
BAT-2 09-02-2019 14:54
Instead of packs of APZ with tig, these appeared in one of the stores. Both went to the USA. It's not clear what the difference is then.
kalax 09-02-2019 23:19
quote: what's the difference.
In packs, Karl, in packs
Allrad 10-02-2019 09:23
quote: Originally posted by BAT-2:
Both went to the USA. It's not clear what the difference is then.
The only difference is in the packaging for different importer-distributors... Although the quality of the APZ is unstable, at least in 223Rem cartridges
Savage94 14-03-2019 20:03
quote: Originally posted by lexa4433:
Has anyone tried these?
Sobol" 14-03-2019 20:11
I'm of the same opinion. I haven’t tried it because... I haven’t seen them here yet, but I condemn them because... Even a self-sad does not provide a significant increase in accuracy. What's the point of prepayment?
But if I see it in a store, I’ll still buy it to try - what if a miracle happens?
user33 15-03-2019 20:32
They haven't reached us yet. According to the experience of the centaur, 7.62x39 will be the same as the usual 3.85 g. Barnaul, only more expensive. Barrels with a pitch of 200 mm will fly disgustingly, with a pitch of 195 they will fly better.
lexa4433 15-03-2019 22:17
quote: Originally posted by Savage94:
Barrels with a pitch of 200 mm will fly disgustingly, with a pitch of 195 they will fly better.
Could you please enlighten me when the pitch change on the Sayog 030 took place from 200 to 195?
I looked on the KK website, and now there is pitch 195 on all 5.45 weapons, including the AK74m. Some kind of miracles.
Savage94 16-03-2019 07:17
quote: Originally posted by user33:
Could you please enlighten me when the pitch change on the Sayog 030 took place from 200 to 195?
quote: Originally posted by lexa4433:
Does a 5 mm rifling pitch, now commonly called a twist, have such a radical effect on the flight of 3.85 and 4.2 g bullets?
They do not have a radical effect. 3.85 at a pitch of 195 flies a little more stable. At a step of 200 mm, there are both good groups of 60-65 mm per 100 and 150 mm per hundred square meters.
Savage94 16-03-2019 16:35
quote: Originally posted by lexa4433:
Amur in a new pack.
quote: Originally posted by lexa4433:
I took it for testing.
lexa4433 16-03-2019 20:38
quote: Originally posted by Savage94:
This is just the same old one. Which was for export. The new one is yellow with a tiger.
The yellow one with the tiger is also for export, not a word of Russian on the pack.
quote: Originally posted by Savage94:
We are waiting for the results of the shooting. Isn't the bullet magnetic at least?
I'll shoot at the first opportunity.
The bullet is not magnetic, brass.
user33 16-03-2019 23:48
quote: Originally posted by Savage94:Could you please enlighten me when the pitch change on the Sayog 030 took place from 200 to 195?
Where did you get the idea that we only produce Saiga in 5.45 caliber?
I asked specifically about Saiga 5.45, because some time ago they, like the AK74m, were produced in 200mm increments, which was drawn both on the Kakashnikov website and in topics from their official representatives. And now suddenly the data has changed, so I would like to know why and exactly when, from what year the carbines were produced. As far as I understand, you don’t have any information about this)))
Savage94 17-03-2019 05:44
quote: Originally posted by user33:
And now suddenly the data has changed, so I would like to know why and exactly when, from what year the carbines were produced. As far as I understand, you don’t have any information about this)))
The Saeg with a 415 mm barrel had a pitch of 200 and remained so. As for the compact versions, the data varies.
lexa4433 17-03-2019 14:19
The rifling pitch and its change are of course interesting, but we cannot influence it.
I think you just need to select a cartridge from the available six options and shoot.
BeshaniiKrol2 21-03-2019 07:36
Has anyone used BPZ FMJ 4.00? How does it fly?
DeniskaDav 21-03-2019 09:41
do such things exist? 4.2 in this caliber is in their line, and what is 4?
Has anyone used BPZ FMJ 4.00? How does it fly?
Like those “increased accuracy” ones? If they do, then they fly no better than regular 4.2
BeshaniiKrol2 21-03-2019 12:44
I saw Ekb in 12 gauge. I didn’t notice the inscription “increased accuracy”. I doubted it.
DeniskaDav 21-03-2019 14:49
quote: Originally posted by BeshaniiKrol2:
I saw Ekb in 12 gauge. I didn’t notice the inscription “increased accuracy”. I doubted it.
Savage94 22-03-2019 13:19
quote: Originally posted by DeniskaDav:
Perhaps it was 5.56 after all
I confirm. Just from there.
Savage94 29-03-2019 07:30
piles of 6 - 8 centimeters
At 50 meters this is a disgusting result. My TG2 shoots heaps of consistent 3.5cm.
Sobol" 29-03-2019 08:31
quote: Originally posted by zero7777:
These were the first shots from it. There was no opportunity to shoot thoughtfully,
in the end it turned out that the pickup was loose and the fastening bolts were loose
no offense, but with such input, your result says absolutely nothing about the quality of the ammunition.
Sobol" 29-03-2019 09:28
quote: Originally posted by zero7777:
It was just stated here that the 4.2 heavy bullet is better. I didn't notice this difference.
That's what I'm talking about. It is impossible to notice the difference in the cartridges when you shoot for the first time, and even with the optics playing. So you write “accuracy of 6-8 cm on a fifty-kopeck piece.” But on a fifty-kopeck piece, 6cm and 8cm are two big differences.
In order to be able to say anything about the difference in the quality of cartridges, you need to collect some statistics by shooting several series of five with each cartridge, and, if possible, excluding other factors (unstable position of the shooter, play in optics, etc.)
An accuracy of 6-8 cm at 50m indicates a source of error that is much stronger than the quality of the ammunition. With such an error, the difference will not be visible even with a self-propelled cartridge, but this does not mean that this difference does not exist.
Savage94 29-03-2019 10:55
quote: Originally posted by zero7777:
And then they started comparing 366
Your results can even be compared to 12 gauge.
Savage94 29-03-2019 12:03
quote: Originally posted by zero7777:
If you have statistics and targets, what is the difference between BPZ fmzh 3.85 and 4.2 cartridges, I will be happy to listen to you.
It's been said a million times. For now we have the following. Both cartridges collect 6-7 cm at 100 meters. With 3.85g, groups increase to 10-15 cm from batch to batch, which cannot be explained by anything other than the quality of the cartridges.
quote: Originally posted by zero7777:
Otherwise you’re trying to crush a novice amateur with your authority
They are trying to overwhelm you with common sense. If you don’t see the difference in cartridges, for God’s sake. If you want to shoot accurately, put your weapon and sights in order, shoot from the machine, then ask questions.
quote: Originally posted by KILLERLOOP:
Is all the difference in the sleeve?
Savage94 29-03-2019 18:15
quote: Originally posted by zero7777:
How will I see her if I shot for the first time and the result turned out to be the same for me, that’s why I started asking questions
If the accuracy of a rifled weapon in your hands is 6-8 centimeters per half hundred, then you need to ask yourself questions. No offense.
1230wwvb 22-06-2019 13:29
Hello everyone.. who has Saiga 030 5.45. After the shot, are there any marks left on the cartridge case??
Savage94 22-06-2019 13:44
After the shot, are there any marks left on the cartridge case?
Sometimes there is an oblique mark on the side.
lexa4433 23-06-2019 08:41
quote: Originally posted by 1230wwvb:
After the shot, are there any marks left on the cartridge case??
But it doesn’t matter, don’t re-equip them.
lexa4433 23-06-2019 09:05
Several times I heard the statement that the HP bullet in the 5.45 Barnaul cartridges is the same as in the .223 Rem cartridges. With the desire for unification and external similarity, this is a completely acceptable thought.
But the calibers are different.
The weight of bullets and BC are different.
Manufacturer information:
http://www.barnaulpatron.ru/pr...ibre/54539.html
http://www.barnaulpatron.ru/pr...alibre/223.html
The opportunity presented itself to compare.
lexa4433 23-06-2019 09:14
There is no kinetic hammer and the collet in the depuller is .30 caliber.
Disassembled using a barbaric method
1230wwvb 23-06-2019 16:55
quote: Originally posted by lexa4433:
They remain. A dent caused by a cartridge case hitting the bolt carrier or box cover.
If you look closely you can see marks from the hook of the ejector and reflector.
But it doesn’t matter, don’t re-equip them.
no. just curious.. on the old saiga m 7.62x39 I also saw a dent leaving somewhere in the middle.
Savage94 24-06-2019 07:11
quote: Originally posted by lexa4433:
The opportunity presented itself to compare.
.223 Rem with a 3.56 g HP bullet is not found in our stores, so 4.0 g.
quote: Originally posted by lexa4433:
The weight of bullets and BC are different.
Amazing, right? Shouldn't we compare bullets of the same weight?
quote: Originally posted by lexa4433:
As you would expect, the diameter of the .223 bullet is larger than that of the 5.45.
quote: Originally posted by lexa4433:
ZY The design of the bullet is strange to say the least. Why is the bottom of the bullet not covered with a jacket?
lexa4433 24-06-2019 19:00
quote: Originally posted by Savage94:
Shouldn't we compare bullets of the same weight?
Of course it's worth it.
If you have Barnaul bullets HP.223 Rem 3.56 g, please send them. I'll compare.
In the manufacturer's table:
5.45 HP 3.56 g. BC 0.229
.223 HP 3.56 g. BC 0.189
quote: Originally posted by Savage94:
Do you know that the bullet is seated in the cartridge case with an interference fit? Do you know that the case material is stronger than the bullet material? Do you know that the diameter of the barrel of the 223 and 5.45 cases is different? Then why would the bullets have the same caliber?
The diameter of the muzzles of the cartridge cases is different because the caliber of the bullets is different.
quote: Originally posted by Savage94:
Normal design. All domestically produced HP are made this way. Manufacturing technology is close to FMJ
Savage94 24-06-2019 19:34
quote: Originally posted by lexa4433:
In the manufacturer's table:
5.45 HP 3.56 g. BC 0.229
.223 HP 3.56 g. BC 0.189
And they also have written speed for a 3.85 gram bullet as much as 940 meters per second, it would be worth reducing it by 100 meters per second.
quote: Originally posted by lexa4433:
The tension is selected for a specific bullet.
Now the felling manufacturers will select the tension for you. During testing, the cartridge does not disintegrate, and that’s normal. You can launch it into production.
quote: Originally posted by lexa4433:
Why did you decide that the muzzle of a steel case is harder than a bullet in a bimetallic jacket?
quote: Originally posted by lexa4433:
In your opinion, when seated in a cartridge case, the bullet shrinks and decreases in diameter?
Of course it squeezes. The inner race of the bearing and the shaft are also deformed during an interference fit. The natural elasticity of steel allows this tension to be maintained for many years, and after dismantling the bearing, the dimensions of the shaft and race return to the original ones, unless, of course, there was a rotation of the shaft in the race.
I reload rifled cartridges and always run into this problem. Fortunately, the bullet is subject to such pressure and acceleration that the bullet, after being fired, willingly accepts the contour of the barrel. And, besides, even a compressed bullet in diameter is larger than the diameter of the barrel at the bottom of the rifling.
quote: Originally posted by lexa4433:
A normal HP bullet looks like this:
Well, ask BPZ to supply this normal bullet. For shooting from Kalash, just right
Strelok-mod79 26-06-2019 13:35
quote: Originally posted by Savage94:
Because the machine presses on the muzzle of the cartridge case, and lead presses on the shell from the inside. What's stronger? Machine or lead?
The machine does not press down on the muzzle when there is a bullet in it. Only Techkrim has reached such degradation until... Otherwise, the cartridge case springs, but the bullet does not. And the bullet, at best, will spin in the cartridge, and at worst, it will fall out on its own.
So on one side there is a thin-walled sleeve, on the other there is a thin-walled shell filled with lead. But the answer is already clear: the bullet should not deform plastically. This is only possible in the crimp zone.
Savage94 26-06-2019 16:33
The machine does not press down on the muzzle when there is a bullet in it.
Right. But, I talked with technologists. I was told that the last step in cartridge assembly is a contour die, or something like that. It must fit onto the cartridge with controlled effort and correct minor flaws in the form of a swollen barrel or wall. If the matrix does not fit, the cartridge is rejected.
It's possible that I misunderstood
quote: Originally posted by Strelok-mod79:
But the answer is already clear: the bullet should not deform plastically.
For a 5.45 caliber, 8 acres in diameter, a bullet with a lead core is not a big plus. And no one really shoots these cartridges with 223 caliber bullets. Not a hunting caliber.
I sometimes insert bullets from a three-ruler into the 308. The difference is also about 8 acres. They fly well.
Strelok-mod79 26-06-2019 20:34
quote: Originally posted by Savage94:
If the matrix does not fit, the cartridge is rejected.
This is burning. Checking a cartridge with a caliber in the form of a chamber, only more strict. In theory, the chamber should not have a strong influence. When 366TKM came out, Techkrim advised everyone to insert the bullet with a gap and then crimp it. I collected a dozen cartridges like this, twisted the bullets, compressed them some more, twisted them again, pressed them harder again and realized that the cartridge case was springy, but the bullet was not. In theory, any compression affects the spraying force. Unless you crimp the funnel from the expansion-fill matrix, then don’t care. It was like a funnel - it didn’t hold a bullet, and after compression it doesn’t hold. Fortunately, the funnel for all cartridges is made using the same matrix and is the same everywhere.
quote: Originally posted by Savage94:5.45x39 Discussions about the question do not subside - why is it needed?Despite all the opinions that this HP flies normally, I consider this bullet design, with an open bottom, a surrogate.
Purely IMHO.Sobol" 08-07-2019 08:12
quote: Originally posted by lexa4433:
I picked up a pack of HP at the local store. Turned out to be 2015.
I recently took more than one and a half thousand of these cartridges. A local gun store was selling off stale inventory at a good discount. My cartridges seem to be 15 years old too. I took everything that was in the store.lexa4433 08-07-2019 19:02
quote: A local gun store was selling off stale inventory at a good discount.In St. Petersburg, even with a discount on the card and promotions 5.45x39, it’s cheaper than 10 rubles.
Sobol" 09-07-2019 13:25
We have 10 rubles - the regular price without a discount (in normal stores).
ruslan.amba 10-07-2019 23:56
It’s strange, we seem to be far from St. Petersburg and Moscow, and the “extreme” price is 3.85 FMG 7.9 rubles. With a 7% discount, it cost me just under 7.4 rubles. FMG 4.2 grams are the most expensive - 9.9 rubles, HP - 8.9 rubles, SP - 9.5 rubles.
zero7777 11-07-2019 01:40
We have 11-13 rubles. One time promotion fmzh 3.85 for 10 rubles
lexa4433 16-07-2019 18:54
quote: Originally posted by AleX413:
It's 10 on Pryazhka right now.
I know.
It takes me 2 hours to get there one way.
Let's try to figure it out.
To begin with, I will leave aside the value of this cartridge for nostalgic Saeg owners who dress their hunting rifles in varnished plywood and spray-paint polyamide magazines plum color. This has always been unclear to me, so to each his own.
Next, I’ll note that stories are from the series A friend of mine, Warrant Officer Zink, promised to fit me some tracers"in practice, they remained in the dense 1990s. Now some kind of order has been established in the army, taking into account weapons and consumables, and the likelihood of unnoticed or writing off a carload of machine gun cartridges is, of course, not completely zero, but this is a rarity that cannot be It’s really worth investing in. If it were different, then the hobbits would not have experienced extreme shortages of weapons and ammunition, gradually re-equipping with more and more ancient historical artifacts and stupid homemade products.
And finally Let’s not forget about the established law enforcement practice regarding the illegal trafficking of military ammunition of the same caliber as civilian ones. If ten to fifteen years ago they turned a blind eye to the hunter’s availability of cartridges with cores (let’s be honest - there was a lot of chaos), now two or more live cartridges are perfectly aroused and worked out 222h1, and having a permit for a Tiger or Saiga of a similar caliber - is not a mitigating circumstance.
Yes, a cunning lawyer can try to come up with a line about a fantastic confusion of live cartridges with civilian ones, which occurred in an unspecified place, at an unspecified time, etc., but this is only one of the lines of defense, and in no way a rehabilitating circumstance.
So no need to mess with army ammo– that’s my advice. Not those times.
Well, let’s actually talk about the material part.
External ballistics.
Cartridge 5.45x39 5.56x45 is almost the same type, and it’s worth comparing it with. Let's take two Saiga-MK carbines with 415mm barrels.
The excess tables look like this:
photo: popgun.ru/viewtopic.php?f=281&t=666649&start=150
Those. rough, 5.45x39 very close to the powerful 4 gram Barnaul-223. However, as the table clearly shows, the .223 is a little heavier and more powerful at launch, but has a slightly less flat trajectory, a little more recoil, and loses energy and speed faster. As a result, the difference in the recoil of a shot, 5J versus 6J, allows you to shoot from a 3kg 5.45 weapon at the same speed as from a similar 4kg 5.56 weapon.
Besides, advantage in direct shot range, for example, according to the Alpha metric target IPSC, looks like this:
photo: oswald-lh.livejournal.com/42471.html
Why is this happening?
With similar weight and caliber, the relative length of the 5.45 bullet is greater than that of the 5.56, and therefore the ballistic coefficient of the domestic cartridge is better.
It didn't happen by chance– our cartridge was made in response to the American one, and the creators tried to make it at least not worse, but better.
As a result, roughly, if a .223 carbine can shoot into the scoring zone without vertical corrections at 300 meters, then with an AK-74 clone this can be done at 350 meters.
Seems like an insignificant difference, but from these pennies comes victory in sports.
Wound ballistics.
This is even more interesting. The 5.56 cartridge was created for weapons with a 510mm barrel, and any carbines in the AKM format are “sawn-off” by default. At the same time, the AP of this FMJ and HP cartridge is based on the destruction of a short bullet in an obstacle due to its high flight speed.
As soon as the speed drops below 700m/s, such destruction does not occur, and the 5.56 jacketed bullet begins to work like an ordinary small bullet, and the expansion does not open.
The effect is well-known and can only be treated by using an SP half-shell, but such bullets are less reliable when chambered in semi-automatic weapons and have a number of other legal disadvantages.
That is, for 5.56 a longer barrel is desirable, optimally 500mm, not 350mm, like the Saiga-MK03 class weapon. In the case of 5.45, we have the well-known effect of a long “bullet with a displaced center of gravity”, which, at almost all ranges of speeds and distances, due to its length, capsizes after about 10 cm of passing through the target, producing a very stable traumatic effect.
And this effect can be achieved on weapons with any barrel length- from “knot” 214mm, to RPKshny – 590mm. That is, the AP does not depend on the length of the barrel, and in the case of a domestic caliber, you can have a weapon that is not only effective on paper in compact dimensions. Separately for imported ammunition.
I often read the opinions of beginners and rifle theorists about the use of imported ammunition, which should increase accuracy to fantastic levels. Unfortunately, in my experience of shooting p.308 and p.223 at IPSC and just at the shooting range, the range of available imported cartridges in Russia is actually quite small. And the quality of these cartridges for a specific barrel often turns out to be much lower than expected for that kind of money.
I'm not calling throw everything away and switch to only products from domestic cartridge factories. It’s just that you shouldn’t immediately discard it - from a Saiga you will most likely shoot with an ordinary Barnaul or Centaur, so the advantage of the existence somewhere in the world of high-precision cartridges in your caliber is very far-fetched.
Conclusions.
It will be extremely interesting if domestic factories do produce a civilian AKMoyd in 5.45x39. This will be an extremely interesting complex, both for sport and as a NAZ weapon “just in case.”
The only question is the price, quality of execution and timing of the appearance of such a complex. For me personally, the new caliber is interesting in the possibility of creating a weapon weighing 3 kg with a barrel length of 350 mm, which has a rate of fire and terminal effectiveness comparable to a heavier weapon with a longer barrel under the .223 caliber.
Here, there is a little. Maybe someone is interested or useful. If anyone has any additions or I made mistakes or inaccuracies, please correct me.
What are they, 5.45x39 cartridges
5.45x39 M74
---5.45x39 PS(index 7N6) - with a bullet with a steel core (steel 10) weighing 3.30–3.55 g. When using this type of cartridge, shortcomings began to appear and a year later the 7N6M appeared, attempts to increase the penetration and stability of the bullet. Since 1986\87, they have been produced with a heat-strengthened (up to 60 HRC) steel (steel 65G/70G/75G) cylindrical core (index 7N6VK). This is mainly due to the widespread use of infantry personal protective equipment. The bullet is unpainted. Something like this...
---5.45x39 T(index 7ТЗ) with a tracer bullet. Subsequently, Schaub didn’t shoot much at those who shoot tracers at night, but that’s how they teach you to shoot at night—at boys who love tracers, they came up with a modernized tracer (index 7TZM, its tracer starts burning after flying 50 meters from the barrel, which brought immediate results +3 or even +4 - it’s not so easy to spot you, there’s not such \\\"exposure\\\" the barrel won’t get dirty in your eyes when you shoot (there’s less wear and less to clean!!!) The green tip of the bullet is something like this. ...
---5.45x39 US(index 7У1) A cartridge with reduced bullet speed, for firing from weapons with silent shooting devices, contains a bullet weighing 5.15 g, which has an initial speed of 303 m/s. The coloring is a black bullet top with a green rim. Something like this...5.45x39 PP
---5.45x39 PP(index 7N10) Cartridge with a bullet of increased penetration (1992) The bullet of the 7N10 cartridge differs from the bullet of the 7N6 cartridge in that it uses a stamped pointed core, the diameter of the upper end is no more than 1.8 mm, the mass of the bullet is increased by 5%, in the head parts, by analogy with the 7N6 bullet, a cavity is left. The new bullet ensured penetration of alloy plates at a distance of 100 meters - 100% and steel plates 14 mm thick at a distance of 100 meters - at least 80%. 1993\94, another modernization of the 7N10, a bullet weighing 3.49–3.74 g penetrates a 16-mm steel plate at a distance of 100 meters, elements of body armor made of titanium alloys at a distance of 200 meters. The sealant varnish is dark purple in color, in contrast to the red in 7N6. A cartridge with a modernized 7N10 bullet of increased power, the main difference of which is that the cavity in the nose is filled with lead, which prevented the shell from being pulled into the hole punched in the barrier by the core. Upon contact with an obstacle by the pressure of lead compressed between the head of the core and the bullet shell, the latter is destroyed. This device prevents parts of the shell from being pulled into the hole, which increases the bullet’s penetration ability. Unfortunately, the line for the production of cartridges remained idle and it was necessary to invent and place the production of other cartridges, such as BP. The bullet is unpainted. Something like this...
---5.45x39 BP(index 7N22) Cartridge with an armor-piercing bullet. After the adoption of the upgraded 7N10 cartridge with increased power into service in 1994, the bullet/body armor confrontation took another turn. 96/97 years of work and testing of the 7N20 armor-piercing cartridge resulted in the adoption of the 7N22 cartridge into service in 1998. A bullet weighing 3.68 g that penetrates an armor plate 5 mm thick at a distance of 250 meters. The 7N22 bullet uses a pointed core made of high-carbon steel U12A, using the cutting method followed by grinding the ogive part. The sealant varnish is red, the bullet has a black nose. Something like this...
---5.45x39 BS(index 7N24) A cartridge with a bullet with an armor-piercing core, (early 200x.g) which is made of VK-4 alloy, weighing 3.93-4.27 g, pierces an armor plate 5 mm thick at a distance of 350 meters. The bullet is unpainted. Something like this...
---5.45x39 PRS Cartridge with a bullet with a lead core. RRS = with reduced ricocheting ability. - designed for shooting in thickets and reeds. In rain and dense fog:llol: Bullet without coloring. Something like this...
5.45x39 VN - cartridges for auxiliary purposes.
---5.45x39 UZ Cartridge with enhanced charge. For factory testing. The entire bullet is completely black. Something like this...
---5.45x39 VD High pressure cartridge. For factory testing. The entire bullet is yellow in color. Something like this...
---5.45x39 Exemplary Model cartridge - intended for comparative testing of the ballistic characteristics of cartridges stored in warehouses. (For factory testing.) Corresponds to the standard cartridge (7N6), but manufactured with increased accuracy. The bullet nose is painted white. Something like this...
Well, there is still time for studying
---5.45x39 Single(index 7ХЗ\7Х2З) Blank (with a hollow white plastic bullet, 0.22-0.26 g), with a charge of fast-burning gunpowder and (index 7ХЗМ) blank, with the barrel compressed into a star shape ( presumably index 7NZ). Something like this plastic...
---5.45x39 U(index 7X4) Training (without charge). It is distinguished by the presence of four longitudinal stampings on the cartridge case and a double circular crimp of the bullet in the cartridge case. MMG is shorter.
Now I'll try the pictures...